Evangelism

Added by Maik Hagenbruch almost 7 years ago

TYPO3 Evangelism - Robert Lemke

Being a frequent speaker at conferences I realized that it is important to spread the word about the TYPO3 project and its products. There is hardly a better way to deliver authentic information and get in touch with existing or future community members.

This budget is about enabling me personally to spread the word about TYPO3 and FLOW3 through public speaking, blogging and social coverage. I covers most of the costs to attend 5 non-TYPO3 conferences:

- preparation of drafts for 4-6 talks (outline, abstract)
- conference selection and paper submission
- communication with conference organizers
- preparations of 3-4 talks (slides)
- travel planning and travel time
- participation at the conference / giving 1-3 talk(s)

Based on average values in 2011 / 2012, one conference
takes about 4,5 days of working time. Typically, the first
conference of a year takes more preparation time then the
last one. Travel costs are usually paid by the conference host.

In the past, I have taken some efforts, together with Ben van't Ende, to start a "TYPO3 Evangelism" project which would involve more people. For several reasons this project never took off.

If such a project is planned and there is a reasonable budget for it, I will of course gladly take part in that effort. I am solely applying for this budget for my person because I currently cannot realistically lead such an effort.

Of course, the actual selection of conference depends on which conferences accept my papers in the end. Typical conferences I have been attending in the past were PHP conferences in Germany and the Netherlands, web technologies conferences (such as Web Expo) and the technology festival Campus Party Europe.


Replies (22)

RE: Evangelism - Added by Oliver Wand almost 7 years ago

Since there have been some pretty high Marketing applications shouldn't this also be included into a somewhat general "Marketing budget", as this - at least for my understanding - is pretty much nothing else but Marketing for the TYPO3 brand?

RE: Evangelism - Added by Felix Oertel almost 7 years ago

I think as member of an open source community it's pretty much self-evident to visit conferences and talk about TYPO3. Besides that, we have an fulltime full-paid community-manager to cover important events no community member can cover. Every conference I visit and every talk I give gives indirect benefit. The one who benefits (either me as a freelancer or my employer) should also pay for that.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Steffen Ritter almost 7 years ago

Sorry Robert, but I see that somehow like Felix.
TYPO3 is an OpenSource project - which should mainly be based on voluntary work.

Beeing on conferences, giving talks and so on is good for the project, but it also promotes yourself.
Also beeing on conferences means fun...

I somehow feel sorry for you that it seems you cannot do anything anymore without getting payed...
This is not the the attitude I like to see pushed forward.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Steffen Gebert almost 7 years ago

I'm for a general Evangelism Budget to visit conferences and promote TYPO3, yes. Paying travel costs (if not an invited speaker) is also very fine for me. But I'm also not happy with paid talk preparation. I know, it's a lot of work, sure - but still, I expect that work to be done voluntarily.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Jo Hasenau almost 7 years ago

I think there's a huge difference between a freelancer or employee of a company and a guy who is working full time for this project.
As a freelancer you would not want to work for the hourly wages paid by the T3A, at least not, when you can deliver code of the quality the TYPO3 Flow people do.
So they already waive a lot of money, just because they are working for the project and NOT as a freelancer.

Any other time they spend for the project without coding will not be paid though, but they still have to make a living, which is why I think such a budget should be possible.

This is not about milestones, return on investment, not keeping deadlines or the like, which is a completely different story. But IF the association decides to have full time paid coders, IMHO they should pay them for EVERYTHING they do for the association.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Philipp Gampe almost 7 years ago

I want to second Felix and Steffen Gebert.

I do not think that the T3A should pay for giving talks at conferences, because most conferences already include a free conference ticket for speakers and attending a conference is already payment enough (at least for OS projects).

What the T3A might consider to do (IMHO of course):
  • pay for traveling cost if those are not taken care of by the host (and the conference/talk is an important promotion of the TYPO3 projects)
  • pay for some general slides/pages (this might be better included into to marketing or PR budget)

IMHO supporting too much paid work steers into the wrong direction. Paid work should one be granted for stuff that is either disliked to be worked on, but needed or stuff that needs to be done on time like release management, security fixes or investigations.

Thus I generally have low support for this budget and would like to ask to put this at the very end of the list.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Ric van Westhreenen almost 7 years ago

IMHO there has already been a discussion regarding this. One of the statements in that discussion was that the costs regarding the promotion or evangelism should be paid from the budget of the project it relates to. Regarding evangelism for the TYPO3 community, that should be paid from the budget of the community manager (Ben). When it is TYPO3 FLOW, than it should be budgetted within the TYPO3 FLOW budget. Evangelism is in that specific case used for the promotion of TYPO3 FLOW. And so on...

RE: Evangelism - Added by Robert Lemke almost 7 years ago

I think Jo said it all: If I was working as a freelancer with an additional income, I could afford spending some time for promoting the TYPO3 project at conferences. But attending 11 conferences, developer days etc. last year wouldn't have been possible on my own account. Every day I am not working on TYPO3 (that is: bookkeeping, taking care of infrastructure, voluntary work like support, sickness days, holidays) I won't get any money – like any other freelancer, but with an hourly rate of 55,- € (rates with TYPO3 guys I'm working with range from 70€ to 125€).

Attending conferences certainly is also beneficial for my reputation. But as I worked almost exclusively for TYPO3, I couldn't use that reputation for an additional income.

I could switch being a freelancer again with 1/4 of my time dedicated to TYPO3. Then I'd certainly be able to attend a few conferences on my own. It would save the Association money, but also would have an impact on the dedication I can give the to the project.

Without any hard feelings: I'm fine with either solution. But I won't join a discussion about what money is reasonable for which work.

In the constitutional meeting for the TYPO3 Foundation in 2004 we calculated that we need 6000 € for paying 3/4 of Kasper's work. The "budget application" was in the lines of: "Pay Kasper that sum so he can work on whatever he need thinks is benefitial for the project". Much easier back then.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Volker Graubaum almost 7 years ago

Sorry,

but rates from 70-125 are not the normal rates for freelancing, but more like 50-80 € (at least in Germany, in nothern Germany even lesser). Additional most Freelancer (which are not working the whole time for the same company) have to add a budget for sales. Soo 55 € is not the highest amount, but it should be quite fair to have a real good live.

But this shouldn't be the most important thing. I like the idea of TYPO3 Evangelism, but shouldn't this be better oraganized? Ben couldn't do the job making tech talks about FLOW or "Phoenix", but at least we should have one budget for the whole "community/evangelism". There should be a budget to be on "all" important conferences and it's really important if we get on "special" events there we should go there with a mindblowing talk. But I think the descission should be organized together with marketing and community management.

Why isn't it possible to have a speaker here: http://www.websummit.net/ ?
It's really sad. So go for the budget, but bundle it together with the budget from Ben, and other related topics.

I will write a few words about bundles later.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Felix Oertel almost 7 years ago

Ok, without hard feelings here too :-)

Robert Lemke wrote:

But attending 11 conferences, developer days etc. last year wouldn't have been possible on my own account.

Yeah, I'd like to visit 11 conferences a year as well ... but nobody is gonna pay me for that. We have a full-time, full-paid community manager with travel and cost in his budget, so I think it would be his job, to promote TYPO3 on conferences.

Every day I am not working on TYPO3 [...] I won't get any money – like any other freelancer

I get that. We've all (most? some?) been there ... we don't get paid when we visit this events as well. You are not an employee with TYPO3 but a freelancer. Visiting conferences is not what we hired you for, so it's your sparetime. Visiting conferences and talking is your best way of marketing yourself. At some point in the future (i hope) you will be free freelancer again and you will greatly benefit from all that.

On a short side-note: You will get a buttload full of benefit from having worked with the assoc for so long anyway. You're the guy, who built FLOW3. I am sure, you will earn much more, when you are a free freelancer again and consult FLOW3 projects and it will reimburse you for some of the money you did not earn now.

but with an hourly rate of 55,- € (rates with TYPO3 guys I'm working with range from 70€ to 125€).

Ok, now I am even more sure about the earning potential. ;-) I would consider me one of the highest paid freelancing Extbase Developers and I earned around 80 bucks an hour. I don't think it's possible to get paid much more. (Agencies, if you disagree, please mail me your offer! ;-) ) To get this, I had to travel 2.000+ km every week by overnight train. Being away from home, wife and kids for at least 24 unpaid hours every week. Of course I had to pay for that as well as for hotels and stuff ...

Then take some money in reserve for times where you don't have an immediate following contract, some money for marketing, conferences, events, codesprints, assoc sponsorings, etc ... you won't be too much off 55 €. Not even considering most of the freelancers work for much much less than 80 €.

In my personal opinion, 55 € is not too bad for a long-term, full-time contract, working from home, getting massive reputation for further freelancing.

But as I worked almost exclusively for TYPO3, I couldn't use that reputation for an additional income.

Not yet, but that does not make it any less valuable.

In the constitutional meeting for the TYPO3 Foundation in 2004 we calculated that we need 6000 € for paying 3/4 of Kasper's work. The "budget application" was in the lines of: "Pay Kasper that sum so he can work on whatever he need thinks is benefitial for the project". Much easier back then.

You followed the discussions that happened, when we decided to shoot for v6 and decouple Phoenix. A lot of people are very very unhappy with how the money was spent in the last years. You can't expect them, to just give more money in the same direction ... this is, what all this fuzz here is about.

Even if it was "much easier back then", without this hole transparency nonsense!

RE: Evangelism - Added by Robert Lemke almost 7 years ago

Felix,

Felix Oertel wrote:

Yeah, I'd like to visit 11 conferences a year as well ... but nobody is gonna pay me for that.

I'ts not about visiting conferences but about delivering talks. That's like asking employees on a cruise ship to work for free because they are traveling the whole year.

We have a full-time, full-paid community manager with travel and cost in his budget, so I think it would be his job, to promote TYPO3 on conferences.

Ben can do a lot of promotion and we frequently team up, but Ben can't deliver talks about Flow at PHP conferences and can't say much about Phoenix (yet).

I get that. We've all (most? some?) been there ... we don't get paid when we visit this events as well. You are not an employee with TYPO3 but a freelancer. Visiting conferences is not what we hired you for, so it's your sparetime. Visiting conferences and talking is your best way of marketing yourself. At some point in the future (i hope) you will be free freelancer again and you will greatly benefit from all that.

yes and I'm ready for that. The point I want raise is: you can get working hours from me half price to get the project ahead. You don't have to go that route of course.

On a short side-note: You will get a buttload full of benefit from having worked with the assoc for so long anyway. You're the guy, who built FLOW3. I am sure, you will earn much more, when you are a free freelancer again and consult FLOW3 projects and it will reimburse you for some of the money you did not earn now.

yes. I also founded the Association, earned 100 - 110 € per hour in 2004 and decided to dedicate my work fully to TYPO3. It has a lot of benefits for myself, but a lot of other people could have gone that way but didn't.

Ok, now I am even more sure about the earning potential. ;-) I would consider me one of the highest paid freelancing Extbase Developers and I earned around 80 bucks an hour. I don't think it's possible to get paid much more. (Agencies, if you disagree, please mail me your offer! ;-) ) To get this, I had to travel 2.000+ km every week by overnight train. Being away from home, wife and kids for at least 24 unpaid hours every week. Of course I had to pay for that as well as for hotels and stuff ...

It depends on the job. As I said, most people I worked with have higher rates and personally I do as well.

Then take some money in reserve for times where you don't have an immediate following contract, some money for marketing, conferences, events, codesprints, assoc sponsorings, etc ... you won't be too much off 55 €. Not even considering most of the freelancers work for much much less than 80 €.

In my personal opinion, 55 € is not too bad for a long-term, full-time contract, working from home, getting massive reputation for further freelancing.

certainly. The point is just: I personally can't get below that. So either I turn much more into a freelancer with less time for TYPO3 (most likely now) or get my whole time paid, no matter what.

Not yet, but that does not make it any less valuable.

It doesn't feed kids or pay mortgages.

Even if it was "much easier back then", without this hole transparency nonsense!

Transparency is one topic, arguing about how much to spend for what another thing. I can be very transparent about earning 1000 € an hour.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Oliver Wand almost 7 years ago

Robert, just being curious:

Since you say that you are not working as a freelancer I assume the coachings and workshops (you have done and will do) around FLOW3 have been and will be done for free?

RE: Evangelism - Added by Felix Oertel almost 7 years ago

Hey Robert,

sorry, I got a bit off track here, but I think it's all related to each other. ;-) Wanted to put my opinion in to the big picture ...

Robert Lemke wrote:

Yeah, I'd like to visit 11 conferences a year as well ... but nobody is gonna pay me for that.

I'ts not about visiting conferences but about delivering talks. That's like asking employees on a cruise ship to work for free because they are traveling the whole year.

I would more compare it to a private trip on a boat, where one person wants to get paid for taking the night shift. Promoting the TYPO3 products is a task of the community and I think if everyone of us just visits one conference, we can split this work to several shoulders.

I want to take a short cut here, because I think it misses the concrete application. I don't want you to visit 11 conferences for free ... but I also don't want to pay you to do it. I want the know how spread amongst more people and then we all go out and promote our products.

The point I want raise is: you can get working hours from me half price to get the project ahead. You don't have to go that route of course.

I'd like to take most of your work for free, some of the work nobody wants to do for 55,- € and for the rest I'd like to hire you as a consultant, so you can pay your bills. But I - personally - don't want our development to be fully funded and the main work done by the same two people over years.

So either I turn much more into a freelancer with less time for TYPO3 (most likely now)

It will be put to a vote ... all this is just my opinion. I know, several other people share it, but this does not mean, that it has to go down that road ... I am very happy, we have the possibility to discuss this stuff now and I will happily accept a member's vote, no matter what result we get.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Wolfangel Cyril almost 7 years ago

+1 with Sritter, plus i do think your posiiton is a bit confusing, are we talking about TYPO3 here or about Flow3 ? Can you realy do both at the same time?

We probably need you were you are the most gifted witch seems to be programming, and somebody more marketing orientated can do the communication part.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Steffen Gebert almost 7 years ago

Seriously, do you want to hear a talk about technical aspects by Ben? Everybody would notice that he's presenting bullshit and he doesn't know, what he's talking about.
Don't mix technical talks with marketing/communication talks. People should just know, what they're talking about.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Wolfangel Cyril almost 7 years ago

I'm shocked by what you just said on Ben, he does an amazing job, and the result is really positive for the association. If i hurted your feeling, i'm sorry about it, and i regret being a bit to harsh with robert on my previous message.

Evangelism is not on my point of view a technical talk.
I have to agree that robert did again a good job at the keynote and i've been convinced by it that a lot of good decisions have been taken by the marketing team and i feel like it's indeed needed to spread the world about NEOS and TYPO3

Now, and again you need to understand that the money doesn't come in from developpers, and if developpers are the one doing the marketing, you wont reach enought clients because there way of thinking is just not adapted to communicate with end users.

We are doing CMS because normal people want to add content to there websites, and companies have needs on internet.

Evangelism is not about technical demonstrations, it's about marketing.

Maybe Robert could team up with somebody like Kian T. Gould for example who is in charge of marketing ?

I still remember the T3CON10 presentation, made by Kasper and Kian, and thit is in my opinion what we need to convince the world to use NEOS / TYPO3

RE: Evangelism - Added by Steffen Gebert almost 7 years ago

Is the most important thing money-making or is it to spread the word, how great our software is?

RE: Evangelism - Added by Ronald Wopereis almost 7 years ago

hi Robert,

i am relatively new to TYPO3 (since 2009) but not new to having or not having money.
my experiments with life in the new attention economy and the old money economy are - at least in my network - received as nothing less than daunting :-)
needless to say it is the life i choose, for better and for worse.

if you put conditions on your decisions, then you let other people decide upon your life.
i wish for you that you make up your mind and change the proposal into an unconditional offering

warmest regards,
Ron

RE: Evangelism - Added by Tolleiv Nietsch almost 7 years ago

Hi,

I like the idea and I like the fact that you brought this up as a single request as this work (including the traveling Ben, Ingo and tons of other people do) isn't really valued properly in our community.
Cheers.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Frank Gerards almost 7 years ago

"TYPO3 is an OpenSource project - which should mainly be based on voluntary work."

That is not what "Open Source" means at all. Voluntary work IS NOT EQUAL to non-paid work, plz think about that...

RE: Evangelism - Added by Frank Gerards almost 7 years ago

PS: I guess 5500€ for preparing talks and travel costs on NON-TYPO3-CONFERENCES to spread the word about TYPO3 Neos and TYPO3 Flow really is nothing to discuss about.
As I followed Roberts slideshows and his keynote on the DevDays 2012 he is an authentic person dedicated to what he is doing and I think he is the best evenagelist you can get for FLOW3. The core value of TYPO3 still is the quality of the developers' work on the code, so getting new, good devs interested to the TYPO3 universe is one of the most important tasks for the future. To envy that and not letting him have his preparing costs being paid from the Assoc budget is like one of the short-mindest discussions I saw on this platform.

To put it straight: Without the full-time dedication of a few people with the skills of Robert, you guys wont even discuss about a budget of nearly 1 Mio € in general !!! There would be no TYPO3 community about that size and no agency/freelance industry working with the tools they coded.

I sincerly hope, that Robert wont turn TYPO3/FLOW3 down in his priority list as after building about 3 projects with FLOW3/TYPO3 Flow and about 40 extbase/fluid extensions as freelancer and with a dev-team (additionally working with Cake PHP, Yii and other PHP frameworks), FLOW3 is simply the best and productive enterprise framework there is on the market today.

So I would encourage all discussion members to look at the bigger picture and stop being small-minded.

RE: Evangelism - Added by Felix Oertel almost 7 years ago

Frank Gerards wrote:

To put it straight: Without the full-time dedication of a few people with the skills of Robert, [...] There would be no TYPO3 community about that size and no agency/freelance industry working with the tools they coded.

nice try ...

please don't mix up "full-time dedication" and "full-time job"

So I would encourage all discussion members to look at the bigger picture and stop being small-minded.

just so that i got this right ... you big picture is one guy responsible for holding together the hole community, ensuring the quality of our products and promoting us to the world? don't want to mistake you ...

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