Phoenix Development

Added by Maik Hagenbruch over 6 years ago

Agile TYPO3 “Phoenix” and FLOW3 Development - Karsten Dambekalns

The development of the next generation CMS codenamed “Phoenix” progressed nicely over 2012, but is still far from being “done done”. Because market share and understanding of the advantages of Phoenix are still too low to enable self-igniting development fireworks, we plan to further pay developers for work on features. Through regular paid work as well as code sprints the most pressing issues and important features will be resolved.
Because the availability of team members and what will actually need to be done is unknown at this point (and simply cannot be planned that much in advance), we will employ an agile strategy based on SCRUM principles. To enable control over the budget use, we will coordinate the respective goals of the next sprint with the EAB and the team after each sprint.


Replies (36)

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by t3agent Christian Händel over 6 years ago

Behind the budget discussion we should remember what happens in the past:
There was one man an he developed TYPO3 ALONE - Kasper has no budget but the willing to create such a great thing.
And we discuss about 6 Developers 24/7??? (@Karsten Dambekans)

Now the present:
Many people lost their trust in Phoenix and won't to see a big budget going to this project.

Once again:
- Give a clear roadmap - what feature will be integrated in which month
- create an alternative less budget with more community activity and voluntary work
AND:
- create a position for marketing, the WHOLE WORLD should have a realtime overview about the features. There must be a person that communicate on official channels and events - not only forge - that the community can trust in this project

Additional:
i complety agree with Volker, Felix and Patrick.

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Manuela Heuing over 6 years ago

+1 @ Volker Graubaum and Stefan Padberg

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Karsten Dambekalns over 6 years ago

Hi.

t3agent wrote:

Once again:
- Give a clear roadmap - what feature will be integrated in which month

Once again: If you tell me who in the team is available to what degree in which month, we can try.

- create a position for marketing, the WHOLE WORLD should have a realtime overview about the features. There must be a person that communicate on official channels and events

So the monthly report in the progress that I publish to typo3.org/news is not official enough? And the fact that most of the team members have talks at every T3DD and T3CON, what about that?

If what you mean is a different way of communication, please help us by defining what is missing.

Regards,
Karsten

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by t3agent Christian Händel over 6 years ago

@Karsten:
I'm at the t3con i hope we find the time to discuss. I will be at the budget discussion or lets try it after that.

Regards
tagent

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Dieter Bunkerd over 6 years ago

I just have to say it. A big fat +1 on this one.

t3agent wrote:

Behind the budget discussion we should remember what happens in the past:
There was one man an he developed TYPO3 ALONE - Kasper has no budget but the willing to create such a great thing.
And we discuss about 6 Developers 24/7??? (@Karsten Dambekans) [...]

Additional:
i complety agree with Volker, Felix and Patrick.

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Andreas Otto † over 6 years ago

t3agent wrote:

Behind the budget discussion we should remember what happens in the past:
There was one man an he developed TYPO3 ALONE - Kasper has no budget but the willing to create such a great thing.

This is not completely true. Kasper did a lot of unpaid work but also a lot of his work was paid by his clients and covered by donations from TYPO3 agencies and users. Anyway in the end it worked for Kasper and for all of us.

After the presentation of TYPO3 Neos at the T3CON12DE things are looking good but are far from being finished. Regarding the features I would like to see in NEOS: L10N, Multisite, Performance. A big, big Thank you! to all involved.

Anyway I am positively impressed by TYPO3 NEOS and would support the budget if there will be a detailed project plan with milestones. Any payment should only be made if milestones are reached.

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Jo Hasenau over 6 years ago

Just to clarify that: Kasper did most of the coding work on TYPO3 for free - but just due to the fact that he understood, what open source is about.

It's about creating a tool for your work, being paid for the work with that tool only, but not particularly for the creation of that tool itself.

When you think about it like that, it just makes sense to make this tool publicly available to have others enhance it, so everybody improving the tool will get back a better chance to earn money with it.

But from a business point of view he still got paid even though not directly for the coding work, but indirectly for the work he could do better after he and a lot of other people improved the toolset.

Additionally we should mention here, that Kasper (together with Robert) once created TeamplaVoila on a fully paid base for Dassault Systems. Still the result was made publicly available, but as I already pointed out in my Forging Grid Elements talk at T3CON12DE, this was just due to the fact, that some clients understand the open source principle of tool sharing as well, and Dassault Systems obviously did.

So mystifying Kasper as a kind of modern Robin Hood who did everything for free is far beyond any facts.

The difference we got today is: There has been no client anymore defining the milestones, just the T3A providing the money to develop something. Again something I mentioned in my talk: Paid work might work out but only when you apply control as well.

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Frank Gerards over 6 years ago

First of all thank you , TYPO3 Phoenix/Neos/FLOW3/Flow team members for your dedicated developement and willingness to develop such a highly complex software like a Enterprise CMS.

The personal overall strategy, that i would choose if I would have to develop sth like Phoenix would be:
- Develop the main core features, that the old TYPO3 CMS toolkit had and that made it enterprise ready (like multi-domain,multi-language,versioning,...) IN A MODERN AND CLEAN OO-DRIVEN WAY. This can imho be very accurately achieved using the FLOW3 framework.

- In the next phase, I would try to integrate features like DAM/FAL, semantic web stuff and so on to EXTEND the feature-range of the old toolkit

I know, that some of the next-phase points may have implications on the way I design my core in phase 1, so THE FIRST THING that has to be there is a plan. Even if it isnt a perfect plan, its lightyears better than coding in a diffuse direction.

So why cant the ppl involved in developing Phoenix propose a feature-list, that is then communicated to the assoc/TYPO3 community and can be discussed and modified ?

I also understand Open Source in such a way, that someone WITH A GOAL develops software, which a community can modifiy for themselves or suggest modifications, which the initial developer can integrate or not. Its not like it has to be a "basisdemokratisches" system, for me its more like plan a common-sensed feature-set and propose it to the world for feedback, THEN (!!) start budgeting/coding...

I hope we can get that on track as I really like the first insight into TYPO3 Neos with TYPO3CR and stuff, the concepts behind FLOW3 and the technical foundations of coding a CMS core are brilliant imho, just do a common-sensed feature-list :)...

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Dieter Bunkerd over 6 years ago

Stefan Padberg wrote:

With the money for the Phoenix project we could do a lot of improvements for Typo3. I don't want the Phoenix be supported any longer.

+100 on this one...

Phoenix (Neos, Flow) was granted a budget of 708.644 SFr already from 2008 to 2011, while in the same period of time TYPO3 CMS received only 250.706 SFr. It really doesn't need a rocket scientist to see that there is something wrong here...

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Steffen Gebert over 6 years ago

Stefan, Dieter, could you explain this also to me as non-rocket scientist? I'm wondering, how you compare Neos and TYPO3 CMS in that regard.

RE: Phoenix Development - Added by Karsten Dambekalns over 6 years ago

I updated the description for the budget application as follows, based on feedback received:

The development of the next generation CMS codenamed “Phoenix” progressed nicely over 2012, but is still far from being “done done”. Because market share and understanding of the advantages of Phoenix are still too low to enable self-igniting development fireworks, we plan to further pay developers for work on features. Through regular paid work as well as code sprints the most pressing issues and important features will be resolved.

To enable control over the budget use, we will coordinate the respective goals of the next sprint with the EAB and the team after each sprint.

The application contains parts for QA and documentation. QA of course overlaps with development, so that part is targeted at “pure” reviews of others' changes by team members (release process QA is covered in the related release management budget). Likewise the documentation part is for solely working on the documentation, like proof-reading or writing new chapters. Keeping documentation updated following code changes os considered to be development.

Because the availability of team members and what will actually need to be done is unknown at this point (and simply cannot be planned that much in advance), we will employ an agile strategy based on SCRUM principles. This means in practice:
  • the team meets daily for a video conference, a short protocol is sent to the mailing list afterwards
  • an IRC channel is used to show presence and to be available for questions by everyone
  • taskboards on the forge are used to plan and control (sprint) goals
  • most team members have a fixed day in the week blocked for project work (paid or not) to ease coordination

The team has a broad set of tasks that need to be done and an overall goal for next year. We are in the process of producing that in written form, including feedback received after T3CON12, aiming at a publication in November 2012.

The calculation for code sprints is based on week-long sprints (4 nights, 5 days) and 10 participants. The past has shown that often the sprint ends up being 6 days, with some arriving late or leaving early.

The updated budget application will be sent to the TYPO3 Association as well.

Phoenix_Development_Budget_Application_2013_v2.odt - v2 with updated description (29.5 KB)

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